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Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | TimDunleavy 02:37 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| . | |
| Link | http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/12/23/capa-modern-millie-racist/ |
| reply to this message | |
| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | reed23 05:47 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - TimDunleavy 02:37 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| An educational opportunity was missed, without a discussion of how MILLIE's stage adaptation satirized and reversed the period stereotypes, rather than perpetuated them – a point that clearly didn't elude the Tony voters, who voted MILLIE as Best Musical, or the millions of other theatergoers worldwide who have seen productions of the show, now a staple of the musical theatre repertoire. I wonder how the two students in question will do out in the real world – probably as well as Shrieking Girl from Yale. Interesting article at link, re: book writer Dick Scanlan and the toned-down MILLIE. | |
| Link | Dick Scanlan and MILLIE |
| reply to this message | |
| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | WaymanWong 01:47 pm EST 12/27/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - reed23 05:47 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| Reed23, I agree 100%. As a big fan of Broadway musicals who happens to be Chinese-American, I LOVE ''Thoroughly Modern Millie.'' I remember the first time I saw it. Once Mrs. Meers (the brilliant Harriet Harris) started using that fake Chinese accent, I thought: ''Uh-oh, I don't know if I'm gonna like this if this is going in a racist direction.'' But then I got it: They were spoofing Asian stereotypes. What's more, Bun Foo and Ching Ho actually help thwart the whole kidnapping plot; they have a show-stopping solo (''Mammy''), AND one of them even falls for Miss Dorothy (!). How often do you see an Asian guy get the white girl? ... This high school petition was misguided, and I wish the two students learned more about the context of why ''Thoroughly Modern Millie'' is doing the opposite: satirizing the Asian stereotypes, not celebrating them. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | MTPROF77 04:38 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - TimDunleavy 02:37 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| I just love when liberals get in their own way. Ridiculous...simply ridiculous. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | BruceinIthaca 04:35 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - TimDunleavy 02:37 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| Though I am certain I will be accused of PC-ness, I have to say I support the students in this case. That the creators of the recent Broadway version didn't see that, despite their revisions from the film, the show still is extremely problematic in its depiction of Asians and of Mrs. Meers' peculiar version of what Edward Said called "orientalism," had me scratching my head. It wasn't terribly funny when Beatrice Lillie did it back in the 60s, and while I think Harriet Harris is an extraordinarily talented performer (and her "They Don't Know" is quite droll on the OBC), it seems as if they would have done better to have jettisoned the ethnic element completely when they decided to turn it into a stage property--and perhaps found some other way to create a conflict or melodramatic peril than "white slavery" (itself a racist term--separating the sexual trafficking, which is what the term always referred to, from the enslavement of people of color). A lot for me to layer onto a silly musical comedy (not all musical comedies are silly, not even the funny ones, but this one is), yes--but all the more reason why the "revisers" would have done better to re-imagine the plot. At least "The Drowsy Chaperone" made the decision to cut the faux-Asian number before it hit Broadway. Yes, "Aldolpho" is also an ethnic stereotype, but at least one based in Western ethnic roles. Also, that character has antecedents in many of the musicals of the 30s. The closest thing to the Asians in TMM seem to me to be the Asian passengers on "Anything Goes" (walk-ons--are they still included in productions?). | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | LynnB 01:14 pm EST 12/27/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - BruceinIthaca 04:35 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| I agree with you on all counts. None of these 'ethnic stereotypes as a joke' was funny in the first place, and including them today is actually counter-productive: The discomfort it inevitably create in the audience, however fleeting, is a distraction that can only hurt the production. On those theatrical grounds alone, they should be cut and/or rewritten -- and the New Yorker article about the Dalton production describes how easy it is to do that. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | sf 01:00 pm EST 12/27/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - BruceinIthaca 04:35 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| " The closest thing to the Asians in TMM seem to me to be the Asian passengers on "Anything Goes" (walk-ons--are they still included in productions?)" Yes they are. And in the (superb) touring revival I saw a few months ago, I have to say those portrayals felt slightly uncomfortable. Those lines were less than hilarious in 1989 in the London iteration of the Lincoln Center production, and they're now *way* past their sell-by date. I have some sympathy with the students in the case of 'Millie' as well. I did not like the show on Broadway (and would not be anxious to see it again anyway), but the whole Mrs. Meers storyline struck me as being crass, unfunny, and (at the very least) borderline racist, albeit unintentionally. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 09:46 am EST 12/27/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - BruceinIthaca 04:35 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| I'm not a fan of the show -- a handful of songs aside (and I love Tesori) it didn't really work for me initially with A-listers, and I've had to see it twice done (well) by high schoolers -- so my reaction is framed by indifference. But really, why would anyone need to use this material in 2015? Yes, every school in America has a gifted triple threat to play the title role. Yet there are better shows, better roles, all without this component. Mainly, considering the national embrace of the show, it's too bad the creators, all very gifted musical theater artists, haven't found a way to revise the show without it. Surely it's possible. It's all so damned corny, and when performed by teenagers, no matter how brilliantly, you have to plant a smile on your face and will an embrace of its silliness. Most schools have someone to fill Harris's shoes, so yes, I get that, too. It's not too late to do a focused revision. Is it PC? Or is the fact that the show isn't good enough to override all that strains our patience and tolerance? I'm showing my hand that I opened my post with, but it's relevant: is MILLIE, in its current form, worth this shtus? | |
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| Similar Controversy in Boston Suburb 2 years ago | |
| Posted by: | crewbway 05:05 pm EST 12/27/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - Delvino 09:46 am EST 12/27/15 |
| I can't remember all the details...the Boston Globe had a few articles about it; I think one of the complaints was that there was a revised version that changed the stereotypes and it wasn't used, but here again...I don't recall. There were Asian students who were upset with the choice of the show. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | simbo 05:16 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - BruceinIthaca 04:35 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| The asians are more than walk-ons, and are key to the resolution of the show (which involves three of the leads impersonating asians, rather than one character). As it happens, by cutting Millie and replacing it with Music Man, you lose a show that has roles for Asians (and in which Meers' dubious impersonation is very much questioned by the asian characters) and replace it with a show with no roles for asians at all. As victories go, it's a tricky one. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | BruceinIthaca 05:43 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - simbo 05:16 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| Except that I think "The Music Man" has now become such a staple of Americana that I would assume any educational institution would use "color-blind" casting (i.e. an Asian Harold Hill, a black Marian, and maybe an Inuit Winthrop would live in this world of River City--and only the most narrowminded audience members, especially those there for what is an extension of the classroom, which is what educational theatre should be about), and it would be little cause for comment. I do understand your point about the roles of the Asians as non-walk-ons in TMM, and I will confess I have not seen it, only listened to it and read the plot summary. I gather there is an attempt to broaden the scope of the Asian characters (doesn't one end up with Miss Dorothy), so I don't assume any malice on their parts nor even necessarily ignorance. But I also wonder if the revision played better on Broadway than it might across the country for this reason. And I don't know what I think about casting non-Asians in Asian roles in such plays as "The King and I" or "Flower Drum Song" (I know, neither Juanita Hall nor Larry Blyden were Asian and Miyoshi Umeki, among others, no doubt were Asian but not Chinese or Chinese-American). I do know that until there are more roles written for non-white performers, we need, especially in educational settings, to imagine beyond the literal, but to also balance this with how younger generations of non-white (and white) young people see people who share their heritage portrayed onstage (and where they can fit in onstage). Does this mean I want a ban on productions of "Othello," because Shakespeare MAY have played on images of the black man as bestial and violent--no, "Othello" is about so much more than that IMO. But, as a wise Asian character once said (in words written for him by a Jewish American), it is "a puzzlement." | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | vegas 05:30 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - simbo 05:16 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| I have only vague recollections of the movie, and haven't seen the stage version, but even if the "asian characters" are cut how can the show have "no roles for asians at all"? Do all of the other roles require non-Asian actors? Such a script would be a rarity. I've even seen My Fair Lady with Asians in leading roles. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | simbo 05:39 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - vegas 05:30 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| Music Man is set in a conservative Iowa town in 1912. While, yes, you can cast asians as the various characters, the fact remains that in that time and that place, it's kinda improbable that an asian character would have been socially intergrated a whole heap. So yes, you can do it but it tends to mean you're pretending the past was a wildly lovely place in ways it really wasn't. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 11:19 pm EST 12/27/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - simbo 05:39 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| Music Man is set in a conservative Iowa town in 1912. While, yes, you can cast asians as the various characters, the fact remains that in that time and that place, it's kinda improbable that an asian character would have been socially integrated a whole heap. So yes, you can do it but it tends to mean you're pretending the past was a wildly lovely place in ways it really wasn't. So, even if we put aside the general idea of color-blind casting for a moment... ...we're talking about a cast made up of teens. But isn't it improbable that teens would have been the sole population of a town like River City, whether in 1912 or now? Would it make any sense that the Mayor would be a teen, and would have a teenage daughter? Would the school board be run by teens? Would Mrs. Paroo be that young? Marian might not be that much older than in her teens, but we have to assume Harold Hill has bene out of school for a while lol. How about Winthrop? I assume many high schools would cast a girl in the role, because most high school boys' voices would have changed already. But would such crossdressing/cross-genderism even be allowed in 1912 Iowa? My point being, why do you see race as a special case in casting in this situation? If the cast is already going to be generally the wrong age range (in terms of look as well as actual age), why should the race of any actor be treated as a different issue? If you can accept a 17-year old boy as Harold Hill, does it really matter what race he is? yes, it's a high school production. But why decide we can accept a young cast playing adults but NOT overlook racial differences as well? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | BruceinIthaca 12:12 am EST 12/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - Chromolume 11:19 pm EST 12/27/15 |
| Thank you so much for putting it in these terms. On this board (and elsewhere) people seem to get particularly tetchy or defensive about asking for either color-blind casting or consideration of how few roles written for non-white performers there exist in the canon of works done for shows done in educational settings. Some show just don't make sense for teens to do--we did a student-directed production of Uncle Vanya when I was a senior (I played the Professor) which I'm sure would have been risible to anyone not part of our peer group or relatives, but, you know what--we learned a lot about Chekov's play by doing it. We also did Never Too Late (I played the lead, Harry) and its menopausal smirky comedy (it was also student directed) taught us very little about what theatre can do. Still, I'm sure we got something out of learning comic timing and physical comedy. People who attend school, college, or even community theatre should acknowledge that they are part of a process whose aims are somewhat different from those of professional theatre. I'm not advocating for "Oh! Calcutta Junior" versions to be done in middle schools, but I think this thread points to the ongoing discomfort we as a nation have around race as a visible issue, which theatre inevitably does. I'd ask us to bring our better angels to the projects educators and their students are trying to do. I also think it is worth considering that non-white students are called on (expected to) "act" in white ways (verbally, culturally) in all kind of ways, visible and invisible and, hence, may not find the code-switching we all seem to worry about when a Native American teen plays Nellie Forbush so difficult as when a white student attempts to "switch codes" into the vernacular urban Black English of Leroy in "Fame" (I know a very Nordic young man cast as Leroy in a Nebraksa high school production of that show--I just can't imagine how cringe-inspiring that could have been and wonder what the young actor got out of the experience) | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | LynnB 01:24 pm EST 12/27/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - simbo 05:39 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| And with an all-Caucasian cast, The Music Man is a realistic portrayal of an Iowa town in 1912??? Maybe there are shows that lend themselves to that kind of argument against multi-ethnic casting. But I don't think The Music Man is among them. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | BruceinIthaca 05:46 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - simbo 05:39 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| Or, as I say above, you suspend disbelief, and assume that the characters are white Midwesterners even if the actors playing them are not. Wasn't Barbara Cook from Tennessee, after all? And switching to film), Hermione Gingold sounded like no Iowan I ever met--even with all the Delsarte and elocution lessons in the world! I think part of the pleasure can be the utopian opportunities (I'm stealing from Jill Dolan and Jose Munoz) such theatrical experiences offer! | |
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| Jill Dolan could weigh in here with gravitas. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 09:55 am EST 12/27/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - BruceinIthaca 05:46 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| (Ah, and wouldn't Jill Dolan have a lot to say about the way an audience unpacks Marian's plight as a spinster in River City! That aspect of "Music Man" is quite the wildcard in 2015, our perception of this woman's influence vis a vis inherited property and entitlement in a staunch patriarchy. Of course, isn't it interesting that she's unleashed, sexually speaking, by a man who's a capitalist criminal? And then, to get back to the topic; Dolan might find a white slave trader Mrs. Mears, a very compelling figure, tied to few options for women in "Millie's" universe.) | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | TheOtherOne 11:21 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - BruceinIthaca 05:46 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| "Wasn't Barbara Cook from Tennessee, after all?" You are right about her not being a midwesterner, but she is from Georgia. | |
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| re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 08:04 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Philly High School drops MILLIE after complaints of racism - BruceinIthaca 05:46 pm EST 12/26/15 |
| Well said! It's not as if Music Man is conceived as a naturalistic work, after all, and even if it were so conceived (as say, A Doll's House is) there is certainly precedent for presenting such a piece in a non-naturalistic manner. The Asians in Millie I find troublesome; this is an issue that could have been addressed in the adaptation to the stage, but that opportunity was at least in part missed. | |
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