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Threaded Order Chronological Order
| The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| The Washington Post deconstructs the Frank Loesser holiday tune: | |
| Link | The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ |
| reply to this message | |
| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 04:29 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| Does Red Skelton claim sexual harassment from Betty Garrett during the reprise of this song which originated in the film "Neptune's Daughter" when she sings in a comically man-hungry manner the lines originally sung before by Ricardo Montalban to Esther Williams? The stuff people get upset about! I can understand Gene Kelly being upset when his "Singin' in the Rain" signature song was used by Stanley Kubrick in "A Clockwork Orange" to the visuals of Malcolm McDowell's character and others raping a woman, but the original intent of "Baby! It's Cold Outside" is flirting to catchy music. | |
| reply to this message | |
| Did They Bother To Define "We?" | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 02:47 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| i didn't care enough to click on the link and find out. i suspect not. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Dumbest article ever. | |
| Posted by: | keikekaze 04:45 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | Did They Bother To Define "We?" - enoch10 02:47 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| At least, the dumbest article since the last one claiming that something was "creepy" or "inappropriate" that isn't. The author, who is apparently 12 years old, has no pop cultural referents except Saturday Night Live. She seems to think "Baby It's Cold Outside" is "a Christmas song" or "a holiday classic" because it gets played a lot in malls in December. She also seems to think it's "dirty." For her information: It isn't, and it isn't. It gets played a lot in malls in December because it has the word "cold" in the title, and that's all. "Winter Wonderland," "Sleigh Ride," and "Frosty the Snowman" also get played a lot in malls in December for the same obvious reason, and they are also not "Christmas songs" or "holiday classics," much less "Christmas carols." "Once In Royal David's City" is a Christmas carol; "Baby It's Cold Outside" is not. These dimwits who see rape and drugs lurking in everything they see or hear always remind me of Tom Lehrer's "Smut!" junkie: "When correctly viewed,/EVERYTHING is lewd!" | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | B_Rabbit 01:56 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| "Creepy" is a good word for those who associate an old comedy song with the scourges of rape, date rape, diminished capacity "consent" and unacceptable coercion. "Say, what's in this drink?" is what you say when you're feeling a bit intoxicated or uninhibited: You choose to joke about the drink rather than stating that you find a man intoxicating. (He can be intoxicating because he's charming, handsome, sings well, or maybe being alone with him has you all a-flutter.) If you seriously suspect your drink is drugged, the last thing you'd say is "Say, what's in this drink?" The song ends in harmony. Characters harmonize when they're in some sort of agreement. By the end of the song, the woman (or "Mouse") concurs that spending more time inside with the man (or "wolf") is more appealing than going outside in the cold. Does this sort of conversation occur in relationships today? Sure. Is it creepy, or a scourge of any sort? | |
| Link | The odd carols |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 12:58 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| There's nothing I hate more about December than the annual hand-wringing about this song. | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | PatrickHSF 12:34 am EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| San Francisco's Smuin Ballet performs this number in The Christmas Ballet's Act Two. When performed as a pas de deux between a man and a woman, with the woman's sensual moves equalling the man's and contradicting her sung wish to leave, the song makes perfect sense as wanting to extend the romance and flirting just a bit. | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 09:43 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| In reply to: | The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| I suppose the connotation tracks when performed as per the SNL sketch. But Cosby likely doesn't spring to mind in Macy's when the song wafts in. Even in 2015 its innuendo is open to a range of interpretations, surely. Can't it still be performed innocuously, a duet between willing equals who want the romance to play out a bit? With a man compelling a woman who's made it clear she might want more time with the guy but enjoys being wooed, too? Even seduced? That's how it always sounds to me. I suppose "You are Woman, I am Man" from FUNNY GIRL could land in the same grey area. I hear coaxing, not coercion. I'm also a man, and fully own my inherent biases. | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | Kimmelhisway 02:53 am EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Delvino 09:43 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| Am I really reading this thread??? REALLY? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 06:10 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Kimmelhisway 02:53 am EST 12/21/15 |
| I know. I've always loved the song, especially around the holidays! | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 10:02 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Delvino 09:43 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| Putting everything under a PC microscope is something I hate about our current world. Though I understand how a lyric like "say, what's in this drink" can be repurposed to fit a current serious issue like the Cosby rapes, it was certainly not meant to be so controversial (or at all) when it was written, and I've never felt the song was more than flirtatious, the way it was obviously written to be. Geez - I'm surprised, that with the current revival of The King And I going on, no one has taken Hammerstein to task for "So many men and girls / are in each other's arms." I mean, that's certainly a bit more "graphic" than that song from Gigi that was getting all the attention last season...;-) Sometimes we just all need to relax, take a few deep breaths, and enjoy things for what they are, instead of having to read new offensive significance into every little thing. | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | Kimmelhisway 02:55 am EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Chromolume 10:02 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| I'm with you! I'm so heartily sick of all this PC revisionism and faux outrage. It's stupid and it's harmful and it's disgusting, not necessarily in that order. Of course I recorded it with the roles reversed - Karen Morrow wanted Charles Nelson Reilly to stay. It was funny. | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 04:40 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Kimmelhisway 02:55 am EST 12/21/15 |
| I agree. A lot of the people who are finding things to be offended about in previously inoffensive things are the ones with the dirty minds. | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | Sam890 08:46 am EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Kimmelhisway 02:55 am EST 12/21/15 |
| You tell 'em Bruce. This PC claptrap has gone too far. Next they'll be trying to tell us there's something wrong with blackface minstrelsy and the good old songs like "All Coons Look Alike To Me". We yearn for the good old days when women knew their place and domestic violence was politely kept behind doors. We could have a laugh about lyrics referring to sexual aggression and hitting your wife if she gave you cheek - it was just all a bit of fun. I'm with you Bruce, this PC nonsense has just gotten out of hand! | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 04:47 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Sam890 08:46 am EST 12/21/15 |
| It's not like they regularly play on the radio or other media that song you mention. Although years ago, when I was in London, this actress from South Africa Sheila Steafel decided it was a hoot to do a medley of old coon songs as part of her club act. As one of our classmates with us is African-American, we were outraged and very pissed of on behalf of our classmate, and we said something to the effect to the management. It's fine to get upset with blackface, especially when one sees that even Judy Garland did a film in which she was in blackface. But unless SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE is doing a sketch in which Bill Cosby is dressed in a cute little ugly Christmas sweater and singing "Baby, It's Cold Outside" to a revolving door full of sweet young ladies, the song itself is not a date-raper's rhapsody, for fuck's sake! | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 03:08 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Sam890 08:46 am EST 12/21/15 |
| have they completely stopped teaching rhetorical strategies in composition classes? do you really think anyone - other than maybe (i prefer giving you the benefit of the doubt) you - find these two things comparable? possible subtextual sexism in a song and the physical expressions of dehumanization exemplified in the jim crow laws that followed 400 years of slavery? do you really not see how insensitive, tone deaf, and insulting that is? and anyone who'd like to chime in with some version of "oh, how pc" can i just head that off at the pass with anybody who thinks dismissing this with thinly-veiled longing for a time when blatant bigotry got more a pass is a moron. how's that for pc? political correctness is a real thing and (i think) often a real problem no matter how misused the term might be. we don't need to call out the faulty logic in labelling this song "sexist" or "pro-rape" or whatever nonsense it is exactly that's being bandied about by applying inappropriate terminology. this argument is silly enough at just face value. | |
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| Claptrap, indeed! | |
| Posted by: | portenopete 12:03 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Sam890 08:46 am EST 12/21/15 |
| You tell 'em, Sam! That's exactly what Bruce was saying and exactly what Frank Loesser was writing about. It reminds me of the blatant sexual aggression in GUYS AND DOLLS when Sky gets Sarah drunk in Havana and then she unleashes her dormant racial hatred towards Latinos in the bar fight. (Not to mention Loesser's thoughtlessly cruel attitudes towards gender confusion in WHERE'S CHARLEY?.) I'm not a lover of "Baby, It's Cold Outside" and couldn't care less if I never hear it again, but just because SNL fashions a (pretty funny and pointed) 20-second skit out of it doesn't mean I think it's somehow been revealed for the hateful, misogynistic screed it always was. It's always struck me as a very mid-century, slightly smarmy lounge song, not one that I would necessarily think of as "Christmassy" but not anything inherently offensive. (You could stick Bill Cosby into any song nowadays and it would shine a new and unpleasant light on the lyrics.) | |
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| re: Claptrap, indeed! | |
| Posted by: | Ann 12:36 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | Claptrap, indeed! - portenopete 12:03 pm EST 12/21/15 |
| The discussion didn't start with Saturday Night Live. There have been a few articles lately about the song and how it comes across. | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | pierce 10:30 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - Chromolume 10:02 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| Sometimes we just all need to relax, take a few deep breaths, and enjoy things for what they are, instead of having to read new offensive significance into every little thing. Yes! | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | BruceinIthaca 12:41 am EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - pierce 10:30 pm EST 12/20/15 |
| I can be as PC as the best of them, but I always saw this song as a seduction duet for two equals (the line about what's in the drink suggests the woman still has control of her faculties). It is from a time when you couldn't simply write "Let's Stay the Night Together." It's a song for sophisticated adults, who enjoy a nightcap, a cigarette, and whatever else may happen. I don't find it "rapey" at all. | |
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| re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 01:14 am EST 12/21/15 |
| In reply to: | re: The creepiest classic of all: What should we do about ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside?’ - BruceinIthaca 12:41 am EST 12/21/15 |
| It's also a great example of oblique lyric writing. Her coy suggestion that she really can't stay is answered in turn with a coy excuse about the weather, etc...both of them not quite ready to say what they both know they really want. (He doesn't sing "but baby, stay here with me and let's get it on" - he simply suggests that it's too cold out there for her to leave, knowing she'll read between the lines. And then she answers back with another excuse, etc.) It's a game. A sophisticated game, as you pointed out. All in fun. | |
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